Scholar Profiles

Boettcher Scholar Year: 1992 Hometown: Akron College(s), Degree(s):Colorado State University, B.S. in Agricultural Economics, 1996; University of Wyoming College of Law, J.D. Law, 1999 Tell us about your current work and how long you’ve been doing it. What is your favorite aspect of your current occupation? I am currently a district court judge for the State of Colorado. My district is the northeastern seven counties and is the size of Massachusetts. I’ve been a state-court judge since 2004. My favorite aspect of the job is the mentoring and coaching that comes with the personal relationships you form in treatment courts. You have the opportunity to really impact a person’s life positively and watch as they realize the fullness of their potential. What role has being a Boettcher Scholar played into where you are and what you are doing now? Without the Boettcher Scholarship, I never would have been able to achieve what I have achieved. The Boettcher Scholarship changed my family tree. It lifted me from poverty and allowed me to be the first in my family to graduate from college. I could take on a reasonable debt for law school and then serve my country as an officer in the U.S. Navy Judge Advocate General’s (JAG) Corps. The Boettcher Scholarship allowed me to focus on public service without the fear of servicing crushing education debt. My children know a better life than I did growing up. They see the American Dream in action through three generations from my parents to them. Tell us about your involvement in activities, organizations, or groups outside of work. I continue to serve my country as an officer in the Reserve Component of the JAG Corps. I serve in the Veterans of Foreign Wars and The American Legion. I volunteer at my kids’ school for various activities. What I like about volunteering is the sense of community connection and the understanding that my perceived problems in life pale in comparison to the problems others in my community overcome daily. What’s the best advice you’ve received and what advice do you have for current graduates entering your career field? The best advice I ever received is, as an attorney, all you have in this profession is your reputation. Guard it and never let it be called into question. The best advice I have for those entering this profession is there are three levels of right: moral, ethical, and legal. Strive to ensure your actions and leadership rise to the highest right, the moral right. If you could have dinner with one person or a few people from history, whom would you choose and why? If I could have dinner with one person, I would choose Jesus Christ. As a Christian, I always try to put Him above all else and act as He would. From dinner conversation I would gain insight on His ways and His parables. As the Son of God, He is the closest thing on Earth that we have to the Creator. I could ask Jesus questions about God and our relationship. This dinner would allow me to get some answers to the burning questions I have about my relationship with the Lord and His with us. I would get to know more about my faith and His plans for me....

By Tracy Wahl The hospital lobby in Trinidad has an incredible mural designed by a nun. It shows the history of the town of 10,000 people where I have been living for the last two years. One day, when I was waiting in the lobby for something routine, I noticed the huge mosaic of tiles spreading from one side of the wall to the other. I started Googling away and found that it was hung in 1979. The artist was a nun, Sister Augusta Zimmer, from the Sisters of Charity in Cincinnati. It's a 2,000-pound ceramic mural, constructed in pieces. It's so heavy that the wall was reinforced so it could hold the weight of the ceramic tiles. I posted a picture on one of the Trinidad Facebook groups and next thing I know someone has responded, “I helped to hang that mural!” I messaged him and said let’s connect. When I first moved here after leaving Phoenix, Arizona, I had left a job that just didn’t fit. And the weather didn’t fit either. The weather in the summer was, as I have now said over and over again, well, it was just unlivable. So when I prepared to move back home to Colorado, I was drawn to Trinidad for the combination of arts community with deep sense of history tied back to the coal miners who once filled these streets. I started writing for the local paper — writing dozens of profiles, essays, and news pieces in the months before COVID struck. I started reporting for the local public radio station. It turned out the guy who responded to my query about the mural on Facebook had been head of the art department at Trinidad State Junior College decades ago when he got a call that Sister Zimmer needed some help to hang the dozens of ceramic blocks that made up the mural. Inspired, he decided to teach his students how to do similar mosaic projects. Those murals now grace the campus of the college. That same day I was walking down Main Street and was looking at a picture window display at one of the local galleries. A man whom I recognized from the school board meeting I had covered for the paper was standing next to me. His wife and he also own the local Hallmark card store next to the picture window where we stood. We were looking at a wonderful sculpture made of nuts and bolts and other metal parts. "The guy who did that sculpture is a police officer," he told me. Cool, I replied, saying that I had always wanted to learn to weld. Well, he said, there is a welding class at the local community college and, in fact, the person you need to call to find out more is married to the police officer who made that sculpture. Small world. Actually, small Trinidad world. About the time I moved here, a friend gave me a piece of pottery. It was curvy and undulating, a bowl but also a cloud shape. A few months later I took a pottery class. The teacher had taught the woman who made the bowl. That's just the way it works here. The fabric of the place is interwoven with art. Two years later, I have completed dozens of paintings, many of which hang in the co-op downtown. Before moving here, while working at NPR in Washington D.C.,  I had taken several continuing education art classes while I worked the overnight. I’d go to class from 6 pm to 10 pm and then drive to work at midnight.  Even though I had taken several of these classes, I had never had one of my paintings professionally framed and displayed in a gallery — that is, until I moved to Trinidad. Now, I had. It was in no small part thanks to my amazing painting teacher, and my high school boyfriend whom I had reconnected with. But it is also partly thanks to this place that is so layered with artists. One day I was working at the art co-op (as part of our membership we all agree to work a few hours a month) and a fellow artist came in and walked up to one of my paintings. They are mostly of local geologic landmarks and scenic views. "My grandparents live right behind this hill, and I grew up seeing that," he told me. I got a little thrill....

Boettcher Scholar Year: 1987  Hometown: Colorado Springs  College(s), Degree(s): Colorado College, 1991; Princeton University, 1995  Tell us about your current work and how long you’ve been doing it. What is your favorite aspect of your current occupation?   Starting in 2013, my professional work has gradually phased into cleaning up oil and gas wells and well pads where companies have filed for bankruptcy and don't restore the land to its original condition. I'm part of a small team of finance, engineering, and environmental professionals who contract for oilfield maintenance and reclamation services year-round in dozens of Colorado counties. It's very rewarding from a public service point of view and has grown tremendously (about ten times in budget terms) since 2018.  What role has being a Boettcher Scholar played into where you are and what you are doing now?   The Boettcher Scholar community has helped me to keep a focus on Colorado and where I fit in its unique set of government, business, and environmental traditions. I've been in more than nine U.S. states in my life, coast to coast, while I worked or studied, and the Foundation's drive to add continuity to the Scholar community has been invaluable to me. I came back to Colorado in 2011 for the next chapter of my career after being away for 20 years, and the Boettcher Scholarship was perhaps the greatest reminder to me to be part of Colorado tradition of giving back. I would also have the chance to be grateful for being a recipient of this state's generosity and its investment in its people.  Tell us about your involvement in activities, organizations, or groups outside of work.   I've enjoyed a series of volunteer positions in my community, in particular for youth sports and religious nonprofit organizations. The positions often need the same level of dedication and skill on a per hour basis that my paid job demands. Since 2014, I've been a Treasurer on a couple of executive teams, a member of a Board of Directors and a Board of Management, and a member of an investment management committee. Each position is something I'd do all over again, none of them were effortless or thankless, and I can say that without these basic nonprofit functions covered by a competent volunteer team, the whole social mission of these organizations would suffer.  What’s the best advice you’ve received and what advice do you have for current graduates entering your career field?   I adore the messages given to me about taking risks. Some Boettcher Scholar programs have repeated this refrain. Why does it matter? We can "play it safe" in our lives, but our world needs bold action that embraces risk more than ever. To my fellow Coloradans who aspire to public service of any kind or who choose a public finance career, I'd say that it pays to be picky about your organization as you advance. Sometimes there will be a disconnect between new leadership goals and the processes that line staff built over a decade or more. You may be on either end of that tension. How your leadership supports you in that tension will make or break your experience. So keep your antenna out and carefully listening for the kind of support that you just might need during a difficult period of change.  If you could have dinner with one person or a few people from history, whom would you choose and why?   I guess MLK has been on my mind a lot since the spring of 2020. I've been lucky to be in a group that meets every Friday at midday to discuss the painful topics of racial justice, mental health, and other matters of our American legacy. I'd like to fill a dinner table with both historical and contemporary legends: Reverend Dr. Otis Moss III, Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Reverend Dr. William J. Barber II, and Reverend Traci Blackmon. They'd have a lot to say about the underbelly of our American story, the 400 years of wounds that are most in need of healing, and the courage needed for the privileged among us to build a better community in which everyone can live up to her potential. ...

By Amelia Atencio For those reading this blog, I have the distinct pleasure of being the first of many guest authors to share my story. The first piece of financial advice I received was a snippet I overheard from a Youtube video, “Aim to save a year’s worth of your salary at any given point in your life. This way, if anything were to happen, you could secure your livelihood while you re-gain your footing.” For those I haven’t had the pleasure of meeting yet, I am Amelia Atencio, a 2014 Scholar and ’18 Colorado College Alumna. Growing up, money was tight in my household and I was always aware of the cost of living. Years like 2008 were challenging and others like 2014 were filled with promise. If, like me, you’re shifting in your seat because this is a slightly uncomfortable topic, that’s because talking about money is taboo. Korrena Bailie, a consumer finance editor at Forbes Advisor says, “Not talking about money can have sweeping social effects, like stopping women from getting equal pay for equal work in the workplace.” March is Women’s History Month - a time to celebrate the achievements of woman across the world and a time to have conversations that carry the torch forward for equal rights, equal pay, and equal representation. I should share that I do not work in finance, I am just a young woman who wants to be able to better manage my money and be financially secure. I want the same for all women. So, how do we help women better manage their money? First, we can begin by being candid and not being embarrassed by financial conversations. Secondly, we can share resources, tips, and empower women to be champions of their own financial security. Most importantly of all, we can make banking and investing more accessible to women. I recently attended an event with History of Colorado to learn more about The Women’s Bank. One of Colorado's and Boettcher’s own champions, Judi Wagner helped found the Women’s Bank in Denver, CO. in 1978. At the time, banks were not favorable to women and until 1974 women still needed a male co-signer to open a bank account or line of credit. This law prevented many female settlers and widowed businesswomen from using a bank to manage their assets. Unlike other female-chartered banks in the U.S., this bank was intended for women. On opening day, they took in over $1 million dollars from women in the community. The success of the bank was so profitable that the annual return averaged ~14%. This success continued for 16 years until 1994 when the bank was acquired by the Colorado Business Bank. During the virtual event, I had the pleasure of asking Judi Wagner, “What advice would you share with women managing their money?” and she said, “To invest.” Not only should women learn to invest, but they should also create portfolios that will allow them to “sleep well at night” and are resilient to market bubbles. A great place to start is ElleVest, but she also stressed the importance of interviewing several brokers to ensure you trust the person managing your investments. I also asked Judi if she thought banking was more welcoming today. She said, “Yes, of course. There are many women in banking and investment roles today.” She also pointed to Jane Fraser saying, “We have come a long way, but there is still much work to be done.” Jane Fraser is a poignant example because she was appointed the CEO of Citigroup this past year — the first female CEO of a large financial institution. While her accomplishment marks an incredible achievement for women, it is also a reminder that appointing women in high-ranking positions is long overdue. Though March is coming to a close, it is important that the work continues. How can you empower the women in your life to play an active role in their finances? Perhaps you can start having conversations with your children at a young age or help them set up their first bank account. Or, if you are well versed in financial planning or investing, you can share your resources with women you mentor at work. At the end of the day, what matters most is dismantling the stigma around money and we can all do that by having candid conversations. Money doesn’t have to be so mysterious....

Boettcher Scholar Year: 2004 Hometown: Aurora, CO College/Degree: Colorado School of Mines for BS in Petroleum Engineering; Rice University for MBA Tell us about your current work and how long you’ve been doing it. What is your favorite aspect of your current occupation? I am currently a director of reservoir engineering and analytics at a small private equity backed oil and gas company that produces mostly natural gas. I live at the intersection of subsurface understanding and finance. I love that I get to deploy machine learning regularly to help make business decisions and that I get to help people in the organization develop. What role has being a Boettcher Scholar played into where you are and what you are doing now? Boettcher has been a great support infrastructure throughout my academic and professional career. Support started with funding of undergraduate research and a more recent example is through personal development coaching. Throughout my career Boettcher has provided substantial support beyond the scholarship that I have found helpful. Tell us about your involvement in activities, organizations, or groups outside of work. Outside of work I am most active through a startup nonprofit focused on early childhood education for at-risk children, where I am the president: Harbor School, Inc. I also participate in a few professional organizations around the topics of oil and gas, energy, engineering, and business. What’s the best advice you’ve received and what advice do you have for current graduates entering your career field? "A wise man can learn from a fool, but a fool can learn from no-one." It's a riff on a quote from Bruce Lee. I think these are wise words to live by whether professional or personal, and I try. If you are entering my career path today or you are starting out as a STEM professional I would recommend focusing in on people and soft skills. Both will matter as much as your technical skills. If you could have dinner with one person or a few people from history, who would you choose and why? Right now the person I wish I could talk to most is James Baldwin. James Baldwin seemed to have understood a lot of things that would help us understand and fix many issues we deal with today as they relate to race (and class and sexuality) in America....

Felisa Gonzales Boettcher Scholar Year: 1997 Alma Mater: Colorado College What does being a Boettcher Scholar mean to you? Being a Boettcher Scholar means that someone believed enough in me and my potential to support my undergraduate education. It means being part of a community of smart and caring people who reflect the diversity of talent in Colorado and share a commitment to giving back. What inspires you to get more involved with the Boettcher Foundation? I haven’t been involved with the Boettcher Foundation and am very much looking forward to becoming more connected with Boettcher Scholars and leaders in Colorado. The Boettcher Foundation has invested in me, and I look forward to now having the opportunity to invest some of my time and skills into the efforts of the Alumni Board. What is one overarching thing you hope to accomplish as a member of the Alumni Board? I’m interested in accomplishing two things as a member of the Alumni Board: 1) increasing our understanding of the contributions of the Alumni Board to the Boettcher Foundation’s efforts and 2) increasing outreach to, and connections among, scholars from Southern Colorado. What’s one interesting fact about you that might surprise others? I’ve developed an interest in the flora and fauna of Colorado and have started trying to identify flowers and birds on hikes and walks with my partner and son. Dominic DiSanti Boettcher Scholar Year: 2005 Alma Mater: Colorado State University What does being a Boettcher Scholar mean to you? Boettcher Scholars represent Colorado’s finest in terms of scholastic achievement, leadership, and community service. I am humbled and proud to be a part of this community that represents the best of Colorado. What inspires you to connect with and/or get more involved with the Boettcher Foundation? It is very important to me that I give back in any way possible to the Boettcher community. I am so grateful for the opportunities that the Boettcher Foundation gave to me, and I am eager to pay it forward. I am at a point in my career where I feel I could provide a unique perspective to the Scholar and Alumni community. What is one overarching thing you hope to accomplish as a member of the Alumni Board? I am most looking forward to reconnecting with the Alumni and Scholar community. I aim to provide meaningful insight and perspective from rural Colorado. What’s one interesting fact about you that might surprise others? As a Colorado native, many are surprised to hear that I have never been skiing. Perhaps an Alumni event on the slopes could change that!...

Mary Margaret Hesse Boettcher Scholar Year: 1992 Alma Mater: CU Boulder What does being a Boettcher Scholar mean to you? Receiving the Boettcher Scholarship changed my life by freeing me from pressing concerns about how to pay for college. My continued affiliation with the Boettcher Foundation has given me many opportunities to continue learning and to maintain and make contact with delightful people. What inspires you to get more involved with the Boettcher Foundation? I am grateful for the many opportunities the Boettcher Scholarship gave me and I enjoy helping to extend the Boettcher Foundation's reach a bit on Colorado's western slope. What is one overarching thing you hope to accomplish as a member of the Alumni Board? I look forward to getting to know other members of the Alumni Board and assisting in any way I can. What’s one interesting fact about you that might surprise others? I have enjoyed serving as an international election observer in eastern Europe in recent years, at least until COVID. I can affirm after observing Belarus's parliamentary elections last year that chaotic American democracy is infinitely preferable to eerie autocracy. Griffin Hampton Boettcher Scholar Year: 2018 Alma Mater: Colorado School of Mines What does being a Boettcher Scholar mean to you? I believe that being a Boettcher Scholar means that you actively seek out opportunities to improve yourself and your community. A Boettcher Scholar also finds ways to persevere and enjoy their journey through life, looking for enriching unique experiences. What inspires you to connect with and/or get more involved with the Boettcher Foundation? I have valued the connections that I have made within the Boettcher community. I want to make sure that there are opportunities for other Scholars to make similar connections and that they take advantage of them. What is one overarching thing you hope to accomplish as a member of the Alumni Board? I plan to dedicate my overarching focus on the Alumni Board to encourage stronger relationships between the current Scholars and the Alumni network. I believe this will primarily come from the Boettcher Buddy program. Still, I will be thinking about other avenues and ways to encourage involvement in programs like Boettcher Buddies. What’s one interesting fact about you that might surprise others? I can count up to 31, using only one of my hands....

Mission Spark, a social impact consulting firm founded by 1994 Boettcher Scholar Kara Penn, continues a close relationship to Boettcher Scholars by selecting Scholars and other high performing undergraduate and graduate students, or recent graduates, interested in social impact careers to serve as Mission Spark Fellows. Each year, Mission Spark offers paid fellowships to dynamic and social impact-minded individuals. Fellows receive mentorship on career and educational pathways from Mission Spark consultants, as well as six sessions of professional and personal development coaching by a CTI-trained coach through the Boettcher Coaching Program. In addition, Fellows work independently on high impact projects, with guidance from Mission Spark consultants and clients. Current Mission Spark Fellow and 2019 Boettcher Scholar, Anila Narayana, is a sophomore at the University of Colorado Boulder studying Integrative Physiology, Geography, and Public Health. She is interested in helping close gaps in healthcare access for marginalized communities. Anila shares, “Working at Mission Spark has been an irreplaceable experience for me. Being a Fellow has given me the opportunity to work on projects important to me and specific to my interests in health and equity. Specifically, I have been helping draft data products based on the Health eMoms survey conducted by CDPHE, highlighting inequities in paid family leave in Colorado. I’ve also been able to work with Her Future Coalition, an NGO empowering survivors of human trafficking, to create business plans for a social enterprise recycling center in Kolkata, India, and to revamp their impact tourism programming. Contributing to these areas has taught me how to create a data-driven story and improved my research skills, while also helping me explore how I can better incorporate activism into my future career. In addition, the coaching experience provided by Mission Spark has prompted me to more intentionally examine my goals for the future, growing my sense of self in the process. I am incredibly grateful to be part of a network that connects me to such meaningful opportunities and values my development, both professionally and personally.” 2016 Mission Spark Fellow and 2013 Boettcher Scholar Alumna, Scarlett Jimenez, now serves as the Development Director for Alliance for Youth Action. She shares that “As a fellow at Mission Spark in 2016, I had the opportunity to support the robust re-visioning process for the Denver Public School’s teacher performance pay incentive program, ProComp. This process brought together stakeholders including the District and Denver Classroom's Teacher Association (DCTA) to review national research related to teacher incentives and tackle the unique challenges and opportunities within the Denver Public School district. At the time of my fellowship, I was a rising Senior at the University of Denver and saw a clear connection from this work to my public policy studies, so I pursued turning this experience into an independent study. Working alongside Professor Robert Fusfeld, I dove into the world of theory and research surrounding teacher performance to both inform my time at Mission Spark and jumpstart a career in social impact work. As an almost lifelong community organizer and political science/public policy major, I knew I wanted to pursue a career in social justice. My time with Mission Spark broadened my perspective of what a career in public service and social impact could look like and cemented my commitment to this work. After graduating, I took a role with the Alliance for Youth Action in Washington, DC. Today, I serve as the Alliance's Development Director, leading our efforts to partner with philanthropy and individual donors to build young people's political power. We are a network of locally-rooted grassroots organizations across the country (including a fantastic Colorado affiliate!). I continue to be grateful for my experience with Mission Spark and the opportunity to work closely with public stakeholders and explore emerging approaches for creating a more just and equitable system for young people.” The Mission Spark Fellowship represents a unique and informal collaboration between an organization run by a Scholar Alum and the Boettcher Scholar Program, by creating mentorship and career opportunities for current or recently graduated Scholars. For more information or to become involved by contributing a project for Fellows to tackle or to be considered as a Fellow in the future, please reach out to Kara Penn at kara@missionspark.org....

From going through the same degree program to working at the same company, Boettcher Scholars Christopher Allison and Jake Fuhrman have a lot in common. Christopher always wanted to be an astronaut – and that’s still his dream. A 2009 Scholar, he majored in Aerospace Engineering at the University of Colorado Boulder, the same program Jake is in as a 2017 Scholar. Both Scholars shared a few of the same professors. “CU was the obvious go-to for aerospace,” said Jake. He always wanted to build airplanes after growing up watching his dad fly them as a pilot. After graduating, Christopher traveled to all seven continents and even ran his first half-marathon in Antarctica. He currently owns four restaurants in addition to his Senior Systems Engineer – Federal Agencies Integration Lead position at Sierra Nevada Corporation (SNC). At SNC, Christopher is responsible for licensing high-tech projects through the appropriate federal agencies. “Basically, I’m a translator of technical-speak to government-speak,” Christopher said. Jake is a Technical Intern at SNC, a position he had applied for as a sophomore and junior but had received rejections both times. He applied a third time after seeing Christopher’s profile in a newsletter from the Presidents Leadership Class, a leadership program at CU Boulder that both Scholars were (and are) involved in. Jake reached out to Christopher and they connected as Boettcher Scholars. “I knew the cloth Jake was cut from,” said Christopher. “The vetting had been done from other organizations.” As a Technical Intern, Jake has a plethora of different projects he’s working on. “My main focus right now is taking a high-level overview of a project – a whole life cycle – and breaking it down into individual steps,” Jake said. Christopher’s entrance to the company was not too different from Jake’s. He was actually at a Boettcher Finalist event when he made the connection to SNC. “I sat at a table of a prospective Scholar whose dad was a program manager at Sierra Nevada,” said Christopher. “I asked if he determined internships at SNC, and he said he was pretty integral.” After following up, Christopher was offered a job. Both Scholars are now working at their dream aerospace company – one that allows them to not only practice their skills but challenge them. “These projects haven’t existed before. My favorite aspect is the futuristic innovation – like having the technology to put humans on the moon,” Jake said, referencing SNC’s Lunar Lander project. “Every day is a new adventure,” added Christopher. “We have audacious goals and we’re always pushing the envelope. In the paradigm of regulation, there’s isn’t a script written on how you do this.” Outside of work, Jake enjoys hiking on Boulder’s many trails and playing tennis. He plans to graduate next year and potentially pursue a fifth-year master’s program. Christopher brews beer and wine and loves to cook. COVID-19 has put some plans on hold – including his now-rescheduled wedding – but with four restaurants to look after, Christopher is still plenty busy. Christopher and Jake offered some advice for Boettcher Scholars. “Take advantage of all the opportunities,” said Jake. “And be grateful for all that Boettcher gives you. Without Boettcher, many opportunities would have never been open to me.” “Don’t be afraid to take opportunities, but also learn to say ‘no,’” Christopher said. “We say ‘yes’ to everything as Boettcher Scholars. Know your limitations.” Both Scholars encourage others to be bold and reach out – just like they did....

Boettcher Scholar Year: 2015 Hometown: Eads, CO University & Degrees: CSU, B.A. in Journalism and Media Communication What are you currently interested in pursuing after graduating? I graduated last year and am now working as a grain merchandiser with Tempel Grain in Wiley, CO. I also do freelance web design and social media management. I grew up on a fifth-generation farm and ended up at Tempel Grain by being part of the community. I’m able to apply my communication skills to the role I now have. Tell us about what activities, groups and/or organizations you have joined in college and why you joined them. I looked for things that sparked my interest - some agricultural and some political. I kept myself busy, though I do wish I would have tried a few more clubs and organizations outside of my comfort zone. Involvement: - College Republicans - Sigma Alpha (agriculture sorority) for professional and social connections - In my freshman year at DU, I participated in CRU and in the Presidents Leadership Program (PLP) - At CSU, I participated in honor societies Experiences: - The highlight at CSU was my study abroad trip to five countries in Europe, where I saw media outlets. We were in London during the royal wedding madness, which was good representation of major media events. - We recorded my cousin’s first album in Nashville, and I worked to help promote his first album and shows. Tell us about an important mentor you have had. My dad has been one of the best mentors. He always encouraged me and never had any doubt that I could do anything. He would listen, nod and say, “OK. Go do it.” What's the best advice you've ever received? Take chances. You’ll never know unless you try. Applying for the Boettcher was one of those stretches that worked well. If you could have dinner with one person or a few people from history, who would you choose and why? Joan of Arc and/or Harriett Tubman. Both were so selfless and brave for their beliefs. That is what I aspire to be....